You can't beat Trump playing by the rules you have to rig the system the same way he does. He threw the playbook out the window. His kakistocracy has to be met with similar responses. The time for "playing nice" has long since passed.
The thing I don’t get about the whole “fight fire with fire” thing is that it’s a misuse of that phrase. To “fight fire with fire” is to introduce a controlled burn that eats up the fuel of potentially bigger fires. What California is doing is just setting another big fire in the same forest.
In like manner, I too am against gerrymandering. But until Democrats can regain a margin of power to turn the authoritarian tide back to a true democracy, the end does justify the means. Let’s not forget , however, that regaining power requires also the exercise of ethical responsibility.
Sorry but "ethical" went out the door when T came to power. Aided and still abetted by the Republican party that sits cowering in his shadow. This is not governing; it is the triumph of the country club rich who have bamboozled enough stupid poor to vote for them. In no way shape or form does Trump relate to the masses that voted for him. PT Barnum would be jealous that you can fool most of the people most of the time. Particularly at election time.
Dems NOW need to come up with a platform that says we will hold those scoundrels who helped Trump fully accountable for their sins. That includes FBI, DEA and ICE thugs who cover their faces and identities and overstepped their authority. An appropriate sentence would be vacations in El Salvador for them or Uganda for UN-American conduct.
And this is the exact reason you should oppose this. Newsome’s heart may very well be in the right place but the approach here is all wrong. We need to oppose Trump but if we build systems designed to consolidate power without building in diffusion mechanisms, it’s going to backfire. We can’t just tell people “be super ethical please” it doesn’t work that way. Everyone is self-interested to some degree and that (potentially even teeny tiny) window is enough for the cycle of corruption to begin. Any time we prioritize our own interests we have a vector to be exploited. That’s not a bad thing in and of itself because everyone has this. The problem occurs when power aggregates to choke-points where one person with exploitable self-interests has power over tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of other people.
I promise my motives are good. At least if you value democracy and the ethics people like us traditionally espouse. I despise Trump, I hate fascists, I don’t want to harm or hurt this push to fight against him. I am trying to help. I’m not saying don’t fight. I am saying let’s be smart. Let’s plan ahead. Let’s make a move that they can’t use to defeat us.
Absolutely not. Do not bend over and take it. Resist but resist in a way that prevents future Trumps and future corruption by designing legislation that accounts for it. What I am saying is that California’s method isn’t robust enough and is, in actuality, detrimental to the democratic process in their state.
Thomas, I'm not following what you mean. You can't do that without having a leg to stand on. No representatives means no power to control anything down the road. I'm missing something....please explain as I believe we all want a good outcome.
Thanks for the good-faith interaction here. I want the same result you folks want and I’ll try to explain my thinking:
Parts of a whole affect the whole. As we’ve all seen in disgust, Texas’ “local” (internal) redistricting efforts affect the “global” (federal) representation distribution. California saw this and said “oh yeah?” rolled up their sleeves and are attempting a similar local function to effect global representation distribution. The problem with this is two-fold:
a) It consolidates power and we already know what happens to political systems where power consolidates.
b) As David mentioned, the game-theoretic outcome is almost certainly detrimental in the end because California will incentivize this tit-for-tat gerrymandering scheme until a lockup state where the Republicans win anyway.
So what can we do? Don’t use a function. Use a functor. Rather than attempting to affect outputs of the global function by changing local inputs, remap the topology of how power can consolidate in the first place. In any system where local silos are impacted by global effects, it’s possible for local silos (say California) to impact other silos (say Texas) via the global network with strategic behavior. It’s easier if you have a few silos to work with (like New York, Colorado, or other mission-aligned states) but, in principle, can be done by a single state.
For instance, California happens to be one of the world’s most formidable economic superpowers so they’re on good footing. If California adopted constraints they have unilateral control over (like internal laws the federal government has no control over) and if it designs those laws to be easily adoptable by compact members, it’s possible to raise the stakes for “client” states who behave in anti democratic ways and provide benefits to states who compact to adopt anti-corruption reflexive policies of their own.
How does that give us political leverage in a two party system? If the regime wins democracy is gone. If democrats sit by and “fight:/“ like we have 1. we won’t win anything and 2. voters will feel the party isn’t fighting back and will stay home- like 2024. Gavin is fighting on the right’s turf and hopefully voters will turn out. My wish is that republicans would see the lies their leaders are telling them and vote for their self interest, but that won’t happen.
Sorry to disagree. Your argument is totally contradictory and makes no sense. On the one hand you support opposing Trump, but then you ramble that we should not take steps to do it. WTF. You teach at Stanford?
Thank you for commenting. No need to be sorry. Disagreement is fine by me.
I don’t think I’m being contradictory. I support opposing Trump but I oppose this particular way of dong it.
I am like you. When I see this authoritarian bullshit happening and real people getting really hurt by his completely evil behavior, I want to punch somebody. More than that, I want to use every dirty trick they would use in order to stop them. But the things is, if we all do what Trump and the hypocrite Republicans are doing, rather than getting rid of the Trumps and the hypocrites, we just make MORE.
Solutions exist. Real, ethical, and democracy-building solutions rather than patchwork solutions where we have to compromise on our democracy and our values. We don’t.
Do note it is already imbalanced and has been for decades. These red states have been gerrymandering for a long time stripping away representation from a LOT of democrats in this country.
I do not support gerrymandering. I, however, live in Ohio which has systematically disproportionately disempowered Democratic districts. The metropolitan areas of Ohio are the Democratic areas. The metropolitan areas pay the state’s bills and yet our voices are silenced because of gerrymandering and we get yahoos in the state legislature and federal Congress that promote the values of rural Ohio. I support Governor Newsom’s proposal. Only when Republicans begin abiding by the laws and acting like adults can we have justice and freedom for all.
I'm thrilled to see a Democrat finally fighting back!!!! I donated $50 and will do so monthly (likely more when I can). Nationally Dems need to get on board and fight back! We need to set the narrative. The Republican party are actively stripping citizens of their rights as Americans. They are actively creating a distopiqn hellscape here in this country. Paint the picture of our future if they succeed with their plans. And why isn't Russel Vaught a more villainized creature in this admin...he is the architect of project 2025.
We the People that love democracy have to fight fire with fire!
The project 2025 people will not going to stop doing what they are doing until they are stopped! If New York is constricted by laws they need to change it.
These KKK,Neo Nazis,Neo Confederates and whatever else is lumped in with this UnAmerican stew! Are going to keep pushing until there is a retaliation against them! Then they will call us lovers of democracy a terrorist organization. Then call for martial law start rounding us up putting us in camps. Then the killing will begin.
It’s all going to end in a civil war anyway.
Unless the Living God calls for a plague to fall on those evil bastards!
Yep I'm with ya. Sometimes you gotta do something unethical or in this case unpalatable to survive. We on the Left and in the middle will figuratively DIE if the GOP has its way. First I think we need to regain some power, and THEN we can work on things that are off-kilter and obnoxiously wrong. It's kind of the same with money in politics: it sucks, but you either have to raise money or you get sent packing. And when some serious stuff is on the line, it seems fairly justified to bring in campaign cash so that you can win--and beat back this Project 2025 agenda, this fascism, this monstrous decimation of institutions that were already in a weakened state.
Amen. First order of business needs to be reining in the power of the president to limit pardon his friends or anyone he has interests, then throttle the executive edicts. Supreme Court ruled that line item veto was illegal. However that is exactly that Trump is doing (after the fact) by destroying the civil service, withholding funds already approved for programs approved by congress. Next agencies like the Fed, FBI, IRS and the military leadership cannot be removed without cause. Leaders of those agencies worked for years to get where they are and should not be removed at the whim of the president. Loyalty to president is equivalent to running the country as if he were king needs to stop.
The rules have changed. Dignity and rule of law have been neutered. It is time to meet the DjT thugs where they are. They are chronic cheaters and the vision they are putting forth is horrific, anti- democrat, cruel, racists, homophonic, misogynistic anti-climate, anti-intellectual, anti-science….
Wow, you covered all the bases. I hope it does not get worse, but it seems that is the direction we are headed. I still wonder which country or group Trump is working for. It is certainly not the USA. Did the FBI get all the documents?
If you don't know, then you need to pay closer attention. I'm not trying to be rude, just thinking if you paid close attention, you would've known that he's an agent for RUSSIA. He admires Putin and others like Putin. I also think Putin has him in a compromised position and knows things that can fiercely hurt him. The way that he bows down and cowers to Putin, it's like he's kissing his butt!
I agree it is too obvious that Putin has something on him. Where are the patriotic Repubs that should be calling him out. Did Putin get to them as well?
I am foriegn citizen,we always regarded ourselves ALLIED with usa,but ,when we lolk,we see ICE AGENTS acting against NORMS of society!we see,you treat palestinians,below human to satisfy your ally ISRAEL,starving woman and children!!you have LOST your moral compass!newsom is ONLY doing whats possible,to fight,and retain,for future,in ability to vote properly,republics have shown,thdy want to cheat
I'm also against gerrymandering for political gain. But that's not what Newsom is doing - he's just putting the playing field back in the position it was before Texas decided to do it simply because Trump & MAGA know they cannot win Without Cheating ... BIG DIFF! If Newsome was using it for political gain, with California as big as it is, he could ask for 10 or 20 seats. Newsom just wants a level playing field.
USA here, we admit he is one big ass pothole we need to fix. Every country is ruled in some way or other by the rich. Most are smart enough to keep a low profile, he is the exception and has let it go to his head. Being rich may buy an election, but it does not make you right.
Winston Churchill had the USA figured out. "America will always do the right thing, after they have exhausted every other possibility". Give us some time, we will persevere and make a better day.
We have shown how it can and should work, now we need to play dirty just like Republicans until we can pass a law even SCOTUS can't neuter to make gerrymandering not only illegal, but must pass a test (procedurally and mathematically defined) before becoming valid. This law has to apply to ALL states. Along the same time we need to update and make more bulletproof an updated Voting Rights Act that applies to ALL states and is not conditional, in order to remove the excuse SCOTUS used to neuter it last time.
Good catch. Not sure how you can do that when SCOTUS usually rules in support of Trump. Like the idea voting districts not be totally political constructs, have measurable qualities. Not sure how to do it when there is a mismatch between land mass and distribution of populations. Maybe a national set of rules instead of each state doing their own thing.
Exactly, the constitution allows congress to make laws regulating elections: "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."
You can't beat Trump playing by the rules you have to rig the system the same way he does. He threw the playbook out the window. His kakistocracy has to be met with similar responses. The time for "playing nice" has long since passed.
Sometimes we have to fight fire with fire. This is one instance.
The thing I don’t get about the whole “fight fire with fire” thing is that it’s a misuse of that phrase. To “fight fire with fire” is to introduce a controlled burn that eats up the fuel of potentially bigger fires. What California is doing is just setting another big fire in the same forest.
Apparently, you dont know how they put out the big ones.
You’re probably right! Tell me more. How do you fight fire with fire in a different way?
In like manner, I too am against gerrymandering. But until Democrats can regain a margin of power to turn the authoritarian tide back to a true democracy, the end does justify the means. Let’s not forget , however, that regaining power requires also the exercise of ethical responsibility.
Sorry but "ethical" went out the door when T came to power. Aided and still abetted by the Republican party that sits cowering in his shadow. This is not governing; it is the triumph of the country club rich who have bamboozled enough stupid poor to vote for them. In no way shape or form does Trump relate to the masses that voted for him. PT Barnum would be jealous that you can fool most of the people most of the time. Particularly at election time.
Dems NOW need to come up with a platform that says we will hold those scoundrels who helped Trump fully accountable for their sins. That includes FBI, DEA and ICE thugs who cover their faces and identities and overstepped their authority. An appropriate sentence would be vacations in El Salvador for them or Uganda for UN-American conduct.
And this is the exact reason you should oppose this. Newsome’s heart may very well be in the right place but the approach here is all wrong. We need to oppose Trump but if we build systems designed to consolidate power without building in diffusion mechanisms, it’s going to backfire. We can’t just tell people “be super ethical please” it doesn’t work that way. Everyone is self-interested to some degree and that (potentially even teeny tiny) window is enough for the cycle of corruption to begin. Any time we prioritize our own interests we have a vector to be exploited. That’s not a bad thing in and of itself because everyone has this. The problem occurs when power aggregates to choke-points where one person with exploitable self-interests has power over tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of other people.
So the answer is to bend over and take it, sorry but I’ll take Gavin’s way over doing nothing, any day of the week.
Me too. I LOVE what he's doing. I question the 'motives' of anyone that disagrees.
I promise my motives are good. At least if you value democracy and the ethics people like us traditionally espouse. I despise Trump, I hate fascists, I don’t want to harm or hurt this push to fight against him. I am trying to help. I’m not saying don’t fight. I am saying let’s be smart. Let’s plan ahead. Let’s make a move that they can’t use to defeat us.
Absolutely not. Do not bend over and take it. Resist but resist in a way that prevents future Trumps and future corruption by designing legislation that accounts for it. What I am saying is that California’s method isn’t robust enough and is, in actuality, detrimental to the democratic process in their state.
Thomas, I'm not following what you mean. You can't do that without having a leg to stand on. No representatives means no power to control anything down the road. I'm missing something....please explain as I believe we all want a good outcome.
Thanks for the good-faith interaction here. I want the same result you folks want and I’ll try to explain my thinking:
Parts of a whole affect the whole. As we’ve all seen in disgust, Texas’ “local” (internal) redistricting efforts affect the “global” (federal) representation distribution. California saw this and said “oh yeah?” rolled up their sleeves and are attempting a similar local function to effect global representation distribution. The problem with this is two-fold:
a) It consolidates power and we already know what happens to political systems where power consolidates.
b) As David mentioned, the game-theoretic outcome is almost certainly detrimental in the end because California will incentivize this tit-for-tat gerrymandering scheme until a lockup state where the Republicans win anyway.
So what can we do? Don’t use a function. Use a functor. Rather than attempting to affect outputs of the global function by changing local inputs, remap the topology of how power can consolidate in the first place. In any system where local silos are impacted by global effects, it’s possible for local silos (say California) to impact other silos (say Texas) via the global network with strategic behavior. It’s easier if you have a few silos to work with (like New York, Colorado, or other mission-aligned states) but, in principle, can be done by a single state.
For instance, California happens to be one of the world’s most formidable economic superpowers so they’re on good footing. If California adopted constraints they have unilateral control over (like internal laws the federal government has no control over) and if it designs those laws to be easily adoptable by compact members, it’s possible to raise the stakes for “client” states who behave in anti democratic ways and provide benefits to states who compact to adopt anti-corruption reflexive policies of their own.
How does that give us political leverage in a two party system? If the regime wins democracy is gone. If democrats sit by and “fight:/“ like we have 1. we won’t win anything and 2. voters will feel the party isn’t fighting back and will stay home- like 2024. Gavin is fighting on the right’s turf and hopefully voters will turn out. My wish is that republicans would see the lies their leaders are telling them and vote for their self interest, but that won’t happen.
Sorry to disagree. Your argument is totally contradictory and makes no sense. On the one hand you support opposing Trump, but then you ramble that we should not take steps to do it. WTF. You teach at Stanford?
Thank you for commenting. No need to be sorry. Disagreement is fine by me.
I don’t think I’m being contradictory. I support opposing Trump but I oppose this particular way of dong it.
I am like you. When I see this authoritarian bullshit happening and real people getting really hurt by his completely evil behavior, I want to punch somebody. More than that, I want to use every dirty trick they would use in order to stop them. But the things is, if we all do what Trump and the hypocrite Republicans are doing, rather than getting rid of the Trumps and the hypocrites, we just make MORE.
Solutions exist. Real, ethical, and democracy-building solutions rather than patchwork solutions where we have to compromise on our democracy and our values. We don’t.
Nope!
Why do you think so, Joan?
What’s ethics got to do with it. It’s politics in all its ugly guises.
Newsome rocks. Other states should rewrite but only to keep balance.
Do note it is already imbalanced and has been for decades. These red states have been gerrymandering for a long time stripping away representation from a LOT of democrats in this country.
Agree 100%!!!!
I do not support gerrymandering. I, however, live in Ohio which has systematically disproportionately disempowered Democratic districts. The metropolitan areas of Ohio are the Democratic areas. The metropolitan areas pay the state’s bills and yet our voices are silenced because of gerrymandering and we get yahoos in the state legislature and federal Congress that promote the values of rural Ohio. I support Governor Newsom’s proposal. Only when Republicans begin abiding by the laws and acting like adults can we have justice and freedom for all.
I feel exactly the same. I'm proud of my governor for standing up. I love how he is coping Trumps childish posts as well. Way to go Governor!
Me too!!!
I'm thrilled to see a Democrat finally fighting back!!!! I donated $50 and will do so monthly (likely more when I can). Nationally Dems need to get on board and fight back! We need to set the narrative. The Republican party are actively stripping citizens of their rights as Americans. They are actively creating a distopiqn hellscape here in this country. Paint the picture of our future if they succeed with their plans. And why isn't Russel Vaught a more villainized creature in this admin...he is the architect of project 2025.
If the Republicans gerrymander even more states, California won't help us. We'll need other blue states to step up.
They are from what I understand.
We the People that love democracy have to fight fire with fire!
The project 2025 people will not going to stop doing what they are doing until they are stopped! If New York is constricted by laws they need to change it.
These KKK,Neo Nazis,Neo Confederates and whatever else is lumped in with this UnAmerican stew! Are going to keep pushing until there is a retaliation against them! Then they will call us lovers of democracy a terrorist organization. Then call for martial law start rounding us up putting us in camps. Then the killing will begin.
It’s all going to end in a civil war anyway.
Unless the Living God calls for a plague to fall on those evil bastards!
Gerrymandering is undemocratic but MAGA cares nothing for Democracy. So be it. Play by their rules and throw them out!
Yep I'm with ya. Sometimes you gotta do something unethical or in this case unpalatable to survive. We on the Left and in the middle will figuratively DIE if the GOP has its way. First I think we need to regain some power, and THEN we can work on things that are off-kilter and obnoxiously wrong. It's kind of the same with money in politics: it sucks, but you either have to raise money or you get sent packing. And when some serious stuff is on the line, it seems fairly justified to bring in campaign cash so that you can win--and beat back this Project 2025 agenda, this fascism, this monstrous decimation of institutions that were already in a weakened state.
Amen. First order of business needs to be reining in the power of the president to limit pardon his friends or anyone he has interests, then throttle the executive edicts. Supreme Court ruled that line item veto was illegal. However that is exactly that Trump is doing (after the fact) by destroying the civil service, withholding funds already approved for programs approved by congress. Next agencies like the Fed, FBI, IRS and the military leadership cannot be removed without cause. Leaders of those agencies worked for years to get where they are and should not be removed at the whim of the president. Loyalty to president is equivalent to running the country as if he were king needs to stop.
The rules have changed. Dignity and rule of law have been neutered. It is time to meet the DjT thugs where they are. They are chronic cheaters and the vision they are putting forth is horrific, anti- democrat, cruel, racists, homophonic, misogynistic anti-climate, anti-intellectual, anti-science….
I totally agree. I've said the same for a long time.
Wow, you covered all the bases. I hope it does not get worse, but it seems that is the direction we are headed. I still wonder which country or group Trump is working for. It is certainly not the USA. Did the FBI get all the documents?
If you don't know, then you need to pay closer attention. I'm not trying to be rude, just thinking if you paid close attention, you would've known that he's an agent for RUSSIA. He admires Putin and others like Putin. I also think Putin has him in a compromised position and knows things that can fiercely hurt him. The way that he bows down and cowers to Putin, it's like he's kissing his butt!
I agree it is too obvious that Putin has something on him. Where are the patriotic Repubs that should be calling him out. Did Putin get to them as well?
I am foriegn citizen,we always regarded ourselves ALLIED with usa,but ,when we lolk,we see ICE AGENTS acting against NORMS of society!we see,you treat palestinians,below human to satisfy your ally ISRAEL,starving woman and children!!you have LOST your moral compass!newsom is ONLY doing whats possible,to fight,and retain,for future,in ability to vote properly,republics have shown,thdy want to cheat
I feel that you're correct.
I'm also against gerrymandering for political gain. But that's not what Newsom is doing - he's just putting the playing field back in the position it was before Texas decided to do it simply because Trump & MAGA know they cannot win Without Cheating ... BIG DIFF! If Newsome was using it for political gain, with California as big as it is, he could ask for 10 or 20 seats. Newsom just wants a level playing field.
Yep!
I’m from UK and I pity you having a con man and clown as your president
USA here, we admit he is one big ass pothole we need to fix. Every country is ruled in some way or other by the rich. Most are smart enough to keep a low profile, he is the exception and has let it go to his head. Being rich may buy an election, but it does not make you right.
Winston Churchill had the USA figured out. "America will always do the right thing, after they have exhausted every other possibility". Give us some time, we will persevere and make a better day.
We have shown how it can and should work, now we need to play dirty just like Republicans until we can pass a law even SCOTUS can't neuter to make gerrymandering not only illegal, but must pass a test (procedurally and mathematically defined) before becoming valid. This law has to apply to ALL states. Along the same time we need to update and make more bulletproof an updated Voting Rights Act that applies to ALL states and is not conditional, in order to remove the excuse SCOTUS used to neuter it last time.
Good catch. Not sure how you can do that when SCOTUS usually rules in support of Trump. Like the idea voting districts not be totally political constructs, have measurable qualities. Not sure how to do it when there is a mismatch between land mass and distribution of populations. Maybe a national set of rules instead of each state doing their own thing.
Exactly, the constitution allows congress to make laws regulating elections: "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators."
Agree!