Trump reminds me of the Arab-Islamic and Kurdish fascists I experienced living under their rule. It's all about creating enemies and distractions while engaging in the most corrupt actions. I don't know if America will survive this fundamentalist Christian assault, as it's easy to destroy but difficult to rebuild. Americans are becoming familiar with corruption, hate, and lawlessness. I've always suspected Christianity could revert to the Dark Ages, and it seems we're heading in that direction, alas!
Yes, every religion has branches which are corrupted by greedy people desiring power. Such people tend to be short sighted and willing to destroy anything in their path. As you said, "easy to destroy but difficult to rebuild". Since they need to 'change the system' to enable their power grab, easier to destroy.
These power mad people need to appeal to large numbers and get them motivated and going in the same direction. A religion of peace, love, tolerance and forgiveness does not get boots on the streets in an act of intimidation. Preaching aggression, hate, intolerance and retribution is much easier. Christianity, like Islam, has many different branches, and many have been used for those seeking power. I try to avoid lumping all branches into one label. The differences between the different Christianity branches is so stark that aside from the book they share, they are polar opposite in what they believe.
I do respect your opinion and I think we have more agreement than disagreement here, however, as an atheist, I don't see any positive side in religion, except for its anesthetic effect for some people who cannot face life's hardships, and religion tends to create an entire new fake reality for believers. Let's take the most peaceful sect of Jehovah Witnesses as an example. The best that they can do is to stay aloof from politics, which is a negative thing in my opinion.
To start with, thank you for an opportunity for a thoughtful discussion. I really enjoy these.
First, MOST people are 'aloof from politics', and while I encourage people to pay attention, usually they are busy just trying to cope with the life directly in front of them. Personally I like the saying: "It is not a matter of life and death, it is more important than that." as applied to politics.
Second, I found my own way to my current set of beliefs, and noticed that Atheism requires faith in it's own way, as does science for most (I see science as a path of discovery, seeking reality).
I certainly learn life lessons from people in the past, and my faith does not fit neatly into ANY religion I have found, not that I have searched hard, for my faith does not require others to believe as I do.
Yes, religion is helpful to many. I know people in different religions and it commonly gives them two things: Community, which is important to people, and is in fact necessary as a rule for our mental health. Community takes many forms, from having a pet, family, good friends, people you see about you that you interact with or a group that thinks like you and shares a common bond.... And, Faith, which settles their mind on the 'hard questions' and gives them assurances their 'soul' (that which they see as their inner self) will survive and find contentment, if they follow certain rules. In general, most religions (certainly excluding a sizable number of them) give functional guidelines for living life, which to be fair, families and schools often do not teach.
Yes, Going to church (which not everyone in a given religion does) can be calming for a person, helping them to cope with life's challenges. I see no reason to take that away from them as long as their faith is not causing harm to others.
On the issue of "fake reality", while I am a 'seeker of reality', I find it slippery at best. We are often confronted with many filters on our perception of reality, and even with science, people often have blind spots. Typically Science focuses on certain 'aspects' of reality, such as those events which are repeatable (as though a non-repeatable event is not real, or should be excluded from examination) and objectively measurable (how objectively measurable are your thoughts - does that make them not 'real'?).
Religion has mostly been crowded out from those areas which science has firmly addressed, and so is focused on that which nobody else is answering. So to call it "fake" is to assume that the reality you perceive is 'real'. You may be right, but without hard evidence (lack of evidence is not sufficient, and that includes 'dismissed' evidence) it is just another attempt to make sense of the universe around us. Personally I think my beliefs are correct, but I do not even offer them here because it is beside the point. I think my theories make sense, but I can not offer any proof that would be persuasive to those of another faith.
I really enjoyed and appreciate you taking time to write down a detailed response. The issue, for me, is that I have come to atheism not because I chose to become an atheist but rather after being religious until I reached my 30s, now I'm 52, and I found religious answers to my questions unconvincing and some times naive. For example, even if we prove by the scientific evidence that there is a beneficent being behind our existence, it is (almost) impossible for religious people to claim the ownership of this being as their own. Two sciences made move toward atheism, astronomy and statistics. I have "religious feelings" without the need for the irrational and I see no problem believing that this one life that we have is our most precious life and that losing it is our most damaging thing, but Abrahamic religions insist on transferring the value of this life to another afterlife realm, something that we are not sure that exists.
Makes sense to me. I had a more or less indifferent religious upbringing, rarely seeing the inside of a church and no talk of it at home, so I had no baggage to let go of. I can understand that baggage to be a significant burden when it causes you more harm than good.
My personal faith does not include an anthropomorphic being, let alone one that is all powerful or responsible for creating everything. And yes, I do find it silly when some religions (not all) claim that their specific rituals or detailed beliefs are the only path to salvation.
Personally I find Astronomy to be based on quite a lot of faith based on a tiny, almost instantaneous snap shot from our incidental location in the universe after billions of years with no ability to verify our assumptions to be able to identify with precision the beginning of the universe... let alone its perpetual expansion, dark matter, dark energy, none of which we can verify locally (for some vague reasons)... (Sorry, touched one of my rants ;)
In general I consider it good policy to treat this life as valuable, but since my personal beliefs do include reincarnation (no pretensions to having been someone famous) I focus on personal growth and helping others to grow, with the hope that some shred of it translates into later lives. Even without that belief, I find it worthwhile to not fear death. I like the old quote of "a coward dies a thousand times, a brave man dies but once". There is a form of immortality in the 'footprint' we leave behind on other people. Since I accept I will die, I like the lyrics "Swear there ain't no heaven And I pray there ain't no hell ... And when I die and when I'm gone There'll be one child born In this world to carry on, to carry on"
Agreed, there is no proof. That is why it is called faith. There is no good reason to have faith in something that is not helpful to you. For instance, I have faith the world will not end before tomorrow through nuclear war, massive solar flare, massive meteor strike, or some other calamity that has occured already in this planets history. It is a simple faith I find comforting and useful in making the best use of this life I have.
I think what's more terrifying is that we the people aren't in control anymore. Once a dictator seizes control of the military (allowed by Congress) what can the people do? That was rhetorical. Nothing! This is why my anger is 100% directed at Congress, not trump or his ilk. Congress is the source of all our pains because it was their job to check his (and the Heritage Foundation) power.
And it literally is the republiCRAPS' fault because they have let the Dictator Deranged Psycho Dimwit a**h**e get away with everything evil that he has done, is doing, and will do. They are timid and way too chicken to stand up to him. What wimps.
I would suggest instead they've all capitalized due to their support of trump. The insider trading was so blatantly obvious it was an insult to us all. Add to that they haven't done a full day's work since trump oozed into the Oval Office.
The White House (OUR HOUSE) East Wing should be restored (NO BALLROOM). The money donated to build a ball room should be used AND if there is a shortfall the demolition donors should be liable for it.
They don’t realize that WE THE PEOPLE not only have a vote and voice WE ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO BOYCOTT.
"Wull, iffn the Presdent he done tacks the Venezoo... Venice... South 'Murca then we wont hafta wurry 'bout the fordabillyty or the jobs, 'cuzn wull haf thur OWULLLLLLLL!"
Do "authoritarians need to be popular, or whether the whole point of being an authoritarian is that you no longer need the people on your side."
Authoritarians often are popular, with at least a significant percentage of the people, but beyond that, they need to be 'tolerated' by the majority of the people.
Without a functioning Democracy, even an active minority can (and often does) create civil war.
In other words, it is all about motivation. In the end, the people have the numbers, and the power.
There is the myth that the Dictator has the military and therefore has the power and the people are helpless prisoners... Certainly Dictators try to push that myth. In reality the military came from 'the people'. Have families of 'the people'. Live in communities of 'the people'. Are most of them really going to go along with mass killings?
Aside from that, everyone has weapons, even if they are not guns. A bottle of alcohol, and fire makes a weapon. Rocks can be deadly. Cars are dangerous. Food can be poisoned. Mobs can overwhelm even modern weaponry. Weapons can be made by anybody. A length of steel pipe is a lethal mace.
Look at North Korea. They do not rely on forced oppression, they use propaganda to control the people. Same in Russia and China (though their propaganda is not as comprehensive). Yeah, some intimidation is used, but most people do not feel it.
The entire point of propaganda is to get "the people on your side". Propaganda only works as long as it does not directly contradict the life experience of most of 'the people'. Trump's lies are getting hard for even Fox and the rest of the media's propaganda efforts to spin into something 'the people' can swallow.
We now can add to the growing list of crimes “ legal sea piracy “ . This regime needs to be made accountable for murder in international waters, crimes against humanity war crimes etc. in a type of Nuremberg trial after they are ousted. What this regime did to America needs to be part of future history lessons.
Vote Blue đŸ’™ in all elections and put a stop to all this republican criminal activity. Fight peacefully Vote Blue and show your DISAPPROVAL of this trump administration. Vote Blue đŸ’™.
The war against drugs is just a pretext to get his hands on Venezuelan oil! With him, it's always about money
Trump reminds me of the Arab-Islamic and Kurdish fascists I experienced living under their rule. It's all about creating enemies and distractions while engaging in the most corrupt actions. I don't know if America will survive this fundamentalist Christian assault, as it's easy to destroy but difficult to rebuild. Americans are becoming familiar with corruption, hate, and lawlessness. I've always suspected Christianity could revert to the Dark Ages, and it seems we're heading in that direction, alas!
Yes, every religion has branches which are corrupted by greedy people desiring power. Such people tend to be short sighted and willing to destroy anything in their path. As you said, "easy to destroy but difficult to rebuild". Since they need to 'change the system' to enable their power grab, easier to destroy.
These power mad people need to appeal to large numbers and get them motivated and going in the same direction. A religion of peace, love, tolerance and forgiveness does not get boots on the streets in an act of intimidation. Preaching aggression, hate, intolerance and retribution is much easier. Christianity, like Islam, has many different branches, and many have been used for those seeking power. I try to avoid lumping all branches into one label. The differences between the different Christianity branches is so stark that aside from the book they share, they are polar opposite in what they believe.
I do respect your opinion and I think we have more agreement than disagreement here, however, as an atheist, I don't see any positive side in religion, except for its anesthetic effect for some people who cannot face life's hardships, and religion tends to create an entire new fake reality for believers. Let's take the most peaceful sect of Jehovah Witnesses as an example. The best that they can do is to stay aloof from politics, which is a negative thing in my opinion.
To start with, thank you for an opportunity for a thoughtful discussion. I really enjoy these.
First, MOST people are 'aloof from politics', and while I encourage people to pay attention, usually they are busy just trying to cope with the life directly in front of them. Personally I like the saying: "It is not a matter of life and death, it is more important than that." as applied to politics.
Second, I found my own way to my current set of beliefs, and noticed that Atheism requires faith in it's own way, as does science for most (I see science as a path of discovery, seeking reality).
I certainly learn life lessons from people in the past, and my faith does not fit neatly into ANY religion I have found, not that I have searched hard, for my faith does not require others to believe as I do.
Yes, religion is helpful to many. I know people in different religions and it commonly gives them two things: Community, which is important to people, and is in fact necessary as a rule for our mental health. Community takes many forms, from having a pet, family, good friends, people you see about you that you interact with or a group that thinks like you and shares a common bond.... And, Faith, which settles their mind on the 'hard questions' and gives them assurances their 'soul' (that which they see as their inner self) will survive and find contentment, if they follow certain rules. In general, most religions (certainly excluding a sizable number of them) give functional guidelines for living life, which to be fair, families and schools often do not teach.
Yes, Going to church (which not everyone in a given religion does) can be calming for a person, helping them to cope with life's challenges. I see no reason to take that away from them as long as their faith is not causing harm to others.
On the issue of "fake reality", while I am a 'seeker of reality', I find it slippery at best. We are often confronted with many filters on our perception of reality, and even with science, people often have blind spots. Typically Science focuses on certain 'aspects' of reality, such as those events which are repeatable (as though a non-repeatable event is not real, or should be excluded from examination) and objectively measurable (how objectively measurable are your thoughts - does that make them not 'real'?).
Religion has mostly been crowded out from those areas which science has firmly addressed, and so is focused on that which nobody else is answering. So to call it "fake" is to assume that the reality you perceive is 'real'. You may be right, but without hard evidence (lack of evidence is not sufficient, and that includes 'dismissed' evidence) it is just another attempt to make sense of the universe around us. Personally I think my beliefs are correct, but I do not even offer them here because it is beside the point. I think my theories make sense, but I can not offer any proof that would be persuasive to those of another faith.
I offer this argument 'in good faith' ;)
I really enjoyed and appreciate you taking time to write down a detailed response. The issue, for me, is that I have come to atheism not because I chose to become an atheist but rather after being religious until I reached my 30s, now I'm 52, and I found religious answers to my questions unconvincing and some times naive. For example, even if we prove by the scientific evidence that there is a beneficent being behind our existence, it is (almost) impossible for religious people to claim the ownership of this being as their own. Two sciences made move toward atheism, astronomy and statistics. I have "religious feelings" without the need for the irrational and I see no problem believing that this one life that we have is our most precious life and that losing it is our most damaging thing, but Abrahamic religions insist on transferring the value of this life to another afterlife realm, something that we are not sure that exists.
Makes sense to me. I had a more or less indifferent religious upbringing, rarely seeing the inside of a church and no talk of it at home, so I had no baggage to let go of. I can understand that baggage to be a significant burden when it causes you more harm than good.
My personal faith does not include an anthropomorphic being, let alone one that is all powerful or responsible for creating everything. And yes, I do find it silly when some religions (not all) claim that their specific rituals or detailed beliefs are the only path to salvation.
Personally I find Astronomy to be based on quite a lot of faith based on a tiny, almost instantaneous snap shot from our incidental location in the universe after billions of years with no ability to verify our assumptions to be able to identify with precision the beginning of the universe... let alone its perpetual expansion, dark matter, dark energy, none of which we can verify locally (for some vague reasons)... (Sorry, touched one of my rants ;)
In general I consider it good policy to treat this life as valuable, but since my personal beliefs do include reincarnation (no pretensions to having been someone famous) I focus on personal growth and helping others to grow, with the hope that some shred of it translates into later lives. Even without that belief, I find it worthwhile to not fear death. I like the old quote of "a coward dies a thousand times, a brave man dies but once". There is a form of immortality in the 'footprint' we leave behind on other people. Since I accept I will die, I like the lyrics "Swear there ain't no heaven And I pray there ain't no hell ... And when I die and when I'm gone There'll be one child born In this world to carry on, to carry on"
Agreed, there is no proof. That is why it is called faith. There is no good reason to have faith in something that is not helpful to you. For instance, I have faith the world will not end before tomorrow through nuclear war, massive solar flare, massive meteor strike, or some other calamity that has occured already in this planets history. It is a simple faith I find comforting and useful in making the best use of this life I have.
I have enjoyed reading your entry and I believe we will keep in touch, bro!
I simply can't predict what asinine stupid move Trump will do next. And I personally find that fact terrifying. He is out of control.
I think what's more terrifying is that we the people aren't in control anymore. Once a dictator seizes control of the military (allowed by Congress) what can the people do? That was rhetorical. Nothing! This is why my anger is 100% directed at Congress, not trump or his ilk. Congress is the source of all our pains because it was their job to check his (and the Heritage Foundation) power.
And it literally is the republiCRAPS' fault because they have let the Dictator Deranged Psycho Dimwit a**h**e get away with everything evil that he has done, is doing, and will do. They are timid and way too chicken to stand up to him. What wimps.
I would suggest instead they've all capitalized due to their support of trump. The insider trading was so blatantly obvious it was an insult to us all. Add to that they haven't done a full day's work since trump oozed into the Oval Office.
Totally agree!!! Thanks for your reply.
MTG on STP
Soap opera star Marjorie Green,
Is performing a tour de force scene.
Can the frail GOP,
Withstand MTG?
The harridan Wrecking Ball Queen?
I sure hope they can't.
The White House (OUR HOUSE) East Wing should be restored (NO BALLROOM). The money donated to build a ball room should be used AND if there is a shortfall the demolition donors should be liable for it.
They don’t realize that WE THE PEOPLE not only have a vote and voice WE ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO BOYCOTT.
donniesocialism isn't making america anything except, a joke!
...although it's far from being funny.
/Cletus_The_Slack_Joweled_Yokel_Affect ON
"Wull, iffn the Presdent he done tacks the Venezoo... Venice... South 'Murca then we wont hafta wurry 'bout the fordabillyty or the jobs, 'cuzn wull haf thur OWULLLLLLLL!"
/Cletus_The_Slack_Joweled_Yokel_Affect OFF
Do "authoritarians need to be popular, or whether the whole point of being an authoritarian is that you no longer need the people on your side."
Authoritarians often are popular, with at least a significant percentage of the people, but beyond that, they need to be 'tolerated' by the majority of the people.
Without a functioning Democracy, even an active minority can (and often does) create civil war.
In other words, it is all about motivation. In the end, the people have the numbers, and the power.
There is the myth that the Dictator has the military and therefore has the power and the people are helpless prisoners... Certainly Dictators try to push that myth. In reality the military came from 'the people'. Have families of 'the people'. Live in communities of 'the people'. Are most of them really going to go along with mass killings?
Aside from that, everyone has weapons, even if they are not guns. A bottle of alcohol, and fire makes a weapon. Rocks can be deadly. Cars are dangerous. Food can be poisoned. Mobs can overwhelm even modern weaponry. Weapons can be made by anybody. A length of steel pipe is a lethal mace.
Look at North Korea. They do not rely on forced oppression, they use propaganda to control the people. Same in Russia and China (though their propaganda is not as comprehensive). Yeah, some intimidation is used, but most people do not feel it.
The entire point of propaganda is to get "the people on your side". Propaganda only works as long as it does not directly contradict the life experience of most of 'the people'. Trump's lies are getting hard for even Fox and the rest of the media's propaganda efforts to spin into something 'the people' can swallow.
We now can add to the growing list of crimes “ legal sea piracy “ . This regime needs to be made accountable for murder in international waters, crimes against humanity war crimes etc. in a type of Nuremberg trial after they are ousted. What this regime did to America needs to be part of future history lessons.
America has been chasing that oil tanker since Sleepy Joe. This isn't a mango antichrist thing; it's a Venezuala-Iran illegal UN violation thing.
This administration is beyond out of control courtesy of the Radical Right Wing Supreme Court.
Vote Blue đŸ’™ in all elections and put a stop to all this republican criminal activity. Fight peacefully Vote Blue and show your DISAPPROVAL of this trump administration. Vote Blue đŸ’™.
Release all the EPSTEIN FILES.
IS TRUMP AND HEGSETH PIRATES NOW.