I agree that there needs to be more investigating. This case can lead down a slippery slope of conspiracy theories, and I believe we have to be careful of that. Frankly, what we do know is already salacious and outrageous so let's continue to dig and verify.
As a health care professional I have considered that there are several issues that can be discussed in the 25% figure for the hyoid bone fracture.
The first thing to discuss would be age. A person above 60 years old with significant bone density loss would exhibit more fractures than someone 20 years old in a hanging or strangulation.
The second thing to discuss is body mass acceleration. Did Epstein tie his fabricated noose to something anchored to the ceiling and jump off a top bunk? Or did he anchor his fabricated noose to the door knob of the entry door of his cell, sitting down to slowly strangle himself. Body mass acceleration has to be considered when discovering why the hyoid bone was fractured in three places.
Someone sitting on the floor slowly strangling themselves would have not put undue stress on their neck, therefore not enough stress to fracture a hyoid bone unless the individual seized (had grand mal seizures) at the time of death. Someone with a noose anchored at the ceiling, jumping or rolling off a top bunk bed would probably cause enough trauma to break the hyoid bone in multiple places.
The last thing to consider is the amount of damage to a body that is strangled to the point of death. Do strangled individuals typically have multiple hyoid bone breaks or single hyoid bone breaks? Would the higher number of breaks in the hyoid bone would be indicative of more strength used by the individual doing the strangling to the person being strangled. Or a child's/small or young adult body versus an over strong adult strangler. I am sorry to be so graphic here but, yeah it has to be considered. I'm sure forensic pathologists do consider this. Do adult males in good health generally have hyoid bone breaks in low body mass acceleration events versus strangulation?
I am sure these cases of strangulation versus hanging have been studied equally well. I am sure that the age of the strangled/hanged person is frequently taken into account to evaluate bone health. And although I have watched a lot of forensic pathology shows along with the rest of America, is there a difference in the bruising patterns seen with strangulation versus hanging that this particular doctor is not discussing? Is he not discussing it because he doesn't realize that there could be to his mind bruising patterns consistent with strangulation as well as the hyoid break? In other words, is he a poor communicator?
The last thing to consider is, is it typical in hanging to have single hyoid bone breaks or multiple breaks when body acceleration is considered. Is it possible to strangle oneself by hanging without breaking the hyoid bone when no body mass acceleration is present?
So saying that there is a 25% incidence of hyoid bone breaks in in a death by hanging does not clearly demonstrate why that figure is pertinent, excluding the possibility of murder. Of that 25%, were all the victims/decedents elderly; did all the ones with hyoid bone breaks in death by hanging have a significant body acceleration event, jumping out of a tree with a 12 ft rope attached to the tree 20 ft above the ground. That would be 12 ft of body acceleration.; Is there evidence that the person seized at death? The additional violence associated with a seizure could induce hyoid bone breaks in a low body acceleration hanging scenario.
And yes, in my healthcare career I saw enough dead bodies with bruising patterns typically associated with the method of death that it is a thing. Respectfully.
So David, more investigation needs to be done other than just discounting the theory because of the 25% exception. A qualified health professional could look at the statistical findings and rule out or promote the case for strangulation or hanging. This would include other factors observed at the time.
We all know this is true if they are trying to take MFSOB dumpty asshole trumpty 💩 name out of the epstein files. We know damn well that MFSOB dumpty asshole trumpty 💩 34 count convicted criminal felon, convicted rapist, convicted sexual abuser, pedophile, statutory rape, talking sexually about his daughter, sex trafficker taking young girls who worked at mar a lago and transporting them to epsteins island. Maybe murderer epstein did not commit suicide he was going to talk. He can't talk anymore. Ivana was supposed to testify and the day before she was to testify she conveniently fell down a flight of stairs and died. He is so far into these epstein files that he is trying to divert us from looking into his sex crimes. Smoke and mirrors is what he does. If epstein would have testified this son of a bitch bastard would not be in the white house he would be in a jail cell where he belongs. He always denies everything he does and sues people so he can MAGA my assets growing again. Everything that comes out of this bastards mouth is a lie. He is up to his eyeballs in this disgusting deviant sexual behavior. If anybody is going to get arrested and thrown in jail it's you son of a bitch bastard. You're going down you sleaze bag. You wouldn't protest too much if you were innocent. You're as guilty as sin and everyone knows it.
Fox at least is blatant lying so people with a brain and morals can see it for what it is. Other corporate news organizations are a bit more insidious. They will delete anything that shows their corporate sponsors in a bad light. What other corporate news does is run advertising disguised as news stories. They do it for the pharmaceutical criminals and Apple that uses slave Labor in China to make their products that are sold in the US.
I invented a new word to describe cases like Epstein and Virginia Giuffre of our medical examiners should describe the manner of death. Here is a new word Epsteinian. An Epsteinian killing is a clear homicide being sold to the people as accidental or suicidal. Medical exams are often complicit and creating a Epsteinian narrative.
Used in a sentence: homicides such as the deaths of Virginia Giufree and Ivanna Trump which are clear homicides passed off to the corporate media as accidents or suicides.
The death of Ivana Trump was more likely than not Epsteinian.
The Epsteinian manner of death is used to silence witnesses and protect Trump and his corporate pedophiles from being brought to justice.
There are multiple inconsistencies in the reporting of his death and circumstances surrounding his death. Also, given what we now know, based on the Epstein files released so far, Jeffrey Epstein had dirt on HUNDREDS of powerful people who all had motive to have Epstein silenced, not the least of which was Dementia Don tRUMP who was President at that time.
With all the accusations of Epstein (and possibly other co-conspirators), allegedly either murdered or had murdered children who were victims of his pedophilia sex abuse crimes. Why then would it be impossible to believe the perpetrators of those crimes not capable of silencing Epstein himself, to cover-up their own criminal behaviors?
The guard reportedly found Epstein with a bed-sheet ligature around his neck which was tied to the top bunk, his butt was only 1-1.5 inches off the floor. As documented below, records from the autopsy state the ligature neck would on his neck was thinner than the bed-sheet he had tied around his neck. Also, the was blood on his neck that was NOT on bed-sheet itself.
While there can be no conclusive determination that the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage fractures were a result of a homicide, the force required to fracture the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage usually requires more of a drop than was indicated by the position of his body.
Here is a list of the inconsistencies:
1. Autopsy and Physical Injuries
Broken Neck Bones: Epstein's hyoid bone (near the Adam's apple) and two parts of his thyroid cartilage were fractured. Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden—hired by Epstein’s brother—stated these three fractures are "extremely unusual" in suicidal hangings and more characteristic of homicidal strangulation.
Ligature Mark and Blood: Baden observed that the neck wound was in the center of the neck rather than higher up (as typical in hangings) and that the wound was thinner than the bedsheet used. He also noted blood on the neck that was absent from the ligature itself.
2. Surveillance Video Discrepancies
"Missing Minute" and Edits: A CBS News investigation found the surveillance footage released by the FBI was not "raw" as claimed, but a copy edited in Adobe Premiere. A one-minute gap (11:59 p.m. to 12:00 a.m.) was later attributed to a nightly system reset.
Unidentified Figures: Forensic analysis of the footage revealed an "orange flash" at 10:39 p.m. While the DOJ suggested it was a guard with linens, independent analysts believe the movement was more consistent with an inmate or someone in a prison uniform.
Camera Malfunctions: Two cameras outside Epstein's cell malfunctioned the night he died. Footage from an earlier July incident—where Epstein was found unconscious—was also reportedly erased due to technical errors.
3. Institutional Failures and Scene Management
Guard Conduct: The two guards assigned to Epstein's unit fell asleep and failed to perform required 30-minute checks for approximately three hours. They later falsified records to cover this up.
Housing Irregularities: Despite a psychologist's warning that Epstein must have a cellmate, he was left alone for a full day after his previous cellmate was transferred. He was also permitted to hoard extra linens.
Staged Scene Allegations: Forensic experts noted that items in the cell, including medications and the noose, appeared in different locations across photographs taken over a 90-minute period, suggesting the scene was moved or "staged" before full documentation.
Hi David. I always enjoy hearing your take on things. I do have to point out something about the Epstein death which you didn't mention. Lividity. Gravity makes blood in the body settle at the lowest point relative to the person's physical position at the time of death. A person lying face up on the floor, for example, will always show lividity on his back. What I read was that the lividity was wrong. It showed Epstein was in a different position when he died and had been moved into the position he was in when he was found. The later position would not have resulted in the lividity pattern which was on Epstein's body. I also heard his brother ask why he would have killed himself when he had a hearing coming up in a few days to discuss his being released from jail. He was not on a suicide watch, either as it didn't appear to the staff that he merited that treatment. The brother also said he hired his own forensic pathologist and said between this guy and the official pathologist, they could not rule out homicide. They settled on suicide due to a lack of proof that someone had access to Epstein's cell. I also have heard about the various people who "knew things" about the pedophile ring being found dead -- and where "suicide" was not always possible as a cause of death. I am not someone who is quick to rush to conspiracy theories. However, I have listened to various reports concerning suspicious deaths associated with Epstein, and I am not convinced. Personally, I think the fractures of the hyoid bone might be the weakest argument to surface. I'm also now thinking of a Sixty Minutes Australia interview with Virginia Guiffre where she mentions coming to consciousness on a bed, being in a lot of pain and in a pool of blood. She said she heard Ghislaine tell Jeffrey they had to take her to the hospital but never learned what the diagnosis was. Virginia wondered if it was a miscarriage. The interviewer asked, "Couldn't you just get the medical records?" Virginia looked at her and responded that the records might just report whatever Epstein wanted to have reported. This is a really dark group of people with lots of money and ability to blackmail people, and you can't judge events by standard means. Jean Luc Brunel's death also had a lot of questions surrounding it. Decades ago, I worked on child sexual abuse cases for Child Protective Services. There are things which are always present in these cases, such as emotional pressure from others not to tell the truth or to recant under these pressures and often that it would be responsible for the person not to tell the truth to protect others. Usually it's psychological pressure. Now add boatloads of money, possible loss of prestige and power and even imprisonment and imagine how those things could raise the stakes for a pedophile not wanting to be caught.
It’s circumstantial for sure, but that’s a lot of holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. If Epstein was a blackmailer and Trump wasn’t responding to him, I can totally see Trump calling for his arrest and murder to keep him quiet. Ivanna too. It’s totally in Trumps character. When he starts getting to the point where someone else has the advantage, he bites hard.
No one thing is enough. But all of these together should definitely prompt a non partisan investigation to get to the bottom of it all.
Thank you, David. Apparently there's now been some publicity about other things such as financial information indicating unlikely timing for a suicide, as well as reminders of Epstein's lenient situation allowing him quite a bit of freedom and the ability to continue doing business. It's always made sense to me that any number of people involved with Epstein had reason to fear disclosure of their own culpability.
My 2 cents...He was murdered but unfortunately any conclusive evidence has long been destroyed. I would say further investigation needs to be done, but only to promote doubt about the suicide. The problem with those two statements is with no conclusive evidence the investigation might look as if it were a confirmation of suicide, rather than casting doubt.
long story short, if you cannot conclusively prove murder, then don't use investigation to confirm suicide. Leaving vague doubt might be more beneficial politically than confirming suicide.
In the 60 Minutes interview of the forensic pathologist, the photos of the sharp cut marks on Epstein’s corpse’s neck are incompatible with strangulation by a bed sheet. They are more consistent with being strangled with a wire garrote.
In addition all of the violation of protocol after he was found dead in his cell suggests skullduggery.
let's change the investigation to how one can be shot in the ear then have no medical report and no scar or damage at all. A modern miracle.
I agree that there needs to be more investigating. This case can lead down a slippery slope of conspiracy theories, and I believe we have to be careful of that. Frankly, what we do know is already salacious and outrageous so let's continue to dig and verify.
The DOJ is not trustworthy.
As a health care professional I have considered that there are several issues that can be discussed in the 25% figure for the hyoid bone fracture.
The first thing to discuss would be age. A person above 60 years old with significant bone density loss would exhibit more fractures than someone 20 years old in a hanging or strangulation.
The second thing to discuss is body mass acceleration. Did Epstein tie his fabricated noose to something anchored to the ceiling and jump off a top bunk? Or did he anchor his fabricated noose to the door knob of the entry door of his cell, sitting down to slowly strangle himself. Body mass acceleration has to be considered when discovering why the hyoid bone was fractured in three places.
Someone sitting on the floor slowly strangling themselves would have not put undue stress on their neck, therefore not enough stress to fracture a hyoid bone unless the individual seized (had grand mal seizures) at the time of death. Someone with a noose anchored at the ceiling, jumping or rolling off a top bunk bed would probably cause enough trauma to break the hyoid bone in multiple places.
The last thing to consider is the amount of damage to a body that is strangled to the point of death. Do strangled individuals typically have multiple hyoid bone breaks or single hyoid bone breaks? Would the higher number of breaks in the hyoid bone would be indicative of more strength used by the individual doing the strangling to the person being strangled. Or a child's/small or young adult body versus an over strong adult strangler. I am sorry to be so graphic here but, yeah it has to be considered. I'm sure forensic pathologists do consider this. Do adult males in good health generally have hyoid bone breaks in low body mass acceleration events versus strangulation?
I am sure these cases of strangulation versus hanging have been studied equally well. I am sure that the age of the strangled/hanged person is frequently taken into account to evaluate bone health. And although I have watched a lot of forensic pathology shows along with the rest of America, is there a difference in the bruising patterns seen with strangulation versus hanging that this particular doctor is not discussing? Is he not discussing it because he doesn't realize that there could be to his mind bruising patterns consistent with strangulation as well as the hyoid break? In other words, is he a poor communicator?
The last thing to consider is, is it typical in hanging to have single hyoid bone breaks or multiple breaks when body acceleration is considered. Is it possible to strangle oneself by hanging without breaking the hyoid bone when no body mass acceleration is present?
So saying that there is a 25% incidence of hyoid bone breaks in in a death by hanging does not clearly demonstrate why that figure is pertinent, excluding the possibility of murder. Of that 25%, were all the victims/decedents elderly; did all the ones with hyoid bone breaks in death by hanging have a significant body acceleration event, jumping out of a tree with a 12 ft rope attached to the tree 20 ft above the ground. That would be 12 ft of body acceleration.; Is there evidence that the person seized at death? The additional violence associated with a seizure could induce hyoid bone breaks in a low body acceleration hanging scenario.
And yes, in my healthcare career I saw enough dead bodies with bruising patterns typically associated with the method of death that it is a thing. Respectfully.
So David, more investigation needs to be done other than just discounting the theory because of the 25% exception. A qualified health professional could look at the statistical findings and rule out or promote the case for strangulation or hanging. This would include other factors observed at the time.
Nice post.
We all know this is true if they are trying to take MFSOB dumpty asshole trumpty 💩 name out of the epstein files. We know damn well that MFSOB dumpty asshole trumpty 💩 34 count convicted criminal felon, convicted rapist, convicted sexual abuser, pedophile, statutory rape, talking sexually about his daughter, sex trafficker taking young girls who worked at mar a lago and transporting them to epsteins island. Maybe murderer epstein did not commit suicide he was going to talk. He can't talk anymore. Ivana was supposed to testify and the day before she was to testify she conveniently fell down a flight of stairs and died. He is so far into these epstein files that he is trying to divert us from looking into his sex crimes. Smoke and mirrors is what he does. If epstein would have testified this son of a bitch bastard would not be in the white house he would be in a jail cell where he belongs. He always denies everything he does and sues people so he can MAGA my assets growing again. Everything that comes out of this bastards mouth is a lie. He is up to his eyeballs in this disgusting deviant sexual behavior. If anybody is going to get arrested and thrown in jail it's you son of a bitch bastard. You're going down you sleaze bag. You wouldn't protest too much if you were innocent. You're as guilty as sin and everyone knows it.
Is there a reference for the study that says: in 25% of hangings there is a fracture?
I ask because there is hanging via a short, sharp drop, and then there is suicide by asphyxiation - which I believe is how JE was found.
I assume the first type would result in fractures more than the second, where the body weight is used to cut off circulation to the brain.
Anyone who uses Fox > NOT! Real News! Fox LIES! Tis’ pure MANIPULATION FOR THE CORPORATE TAKEOVER BY BILLIONAIRES!
Fox at least is blatant lying so people with a brain and morals can see it for what it is. Other corporate news organizations are a bit more insidious. They will delete anything that shows their corporate sponsors in a bad light. What other corporate news does is run advertising disguised as news stories. They do it for the pharmaceutical criminals and Apple that uses slave Labor in China to make their products that are sold in the US.
I invented a new word to describe cases like Epstein and Virginia Giuffre of our medical examiners should describe the manner of death. Here is a new word Epsteinian. An Epsteinian killing is a clear homicide being sold to the people as accidental or suicidal. Medical exams are often complicit and creating a Epsteinian narrative.
Used in a sentence: homicides such as the deaths of Virginia Giufree and Ivanna Trump which are clear homicides passed off to the corporate media as accidents or suicides.
The death of Ivana Trump was more likely than not Epsteinian.
The Epsteinian manner of death is used to silence witnesses and protect Trump and his corporate pedophiles from being brought to justice.
There are multiple inconsistencies in the reporting of his death and circumstances surrounding his death. Also, given what we now know, based on the Epstein files released so far, Jeffrey Epstein had dirt on HUNDREDS of powerful people who all had motive to have Epstein silenced, not the least of which was Dementia Don tRUMP who was President at that time.
With all the accusations of Epstein (and possibly other co-conspirators), allegedly either murdered or had murdered children who were victims of his pedophilia sex abuse crimes. Why then would it be impossible to believe the perpetrators of those crimes not capable of silencing Epstein himself, to cover-up their own criminal behaviors?
The guard reportedly found Epstein with a bed-sheet ligature around his neck which was tied to the top bunk, his butt was only 1-1.5 inches off the floor. As documented below, records from the autopsy state the ligature neck would on his neck was thinner than the bed-sheet he had tied around his neck. Also, the was blood on his neck that was NOT on bed-sheet itself.
While there can be no conclusive determination that the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage fractures were a result of a homicide, the force required to fracture the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage usually requires more of a drop than was indicated by the position of his body.
Here is a list of the inconsistencies:
1. Autopsy and Physical Injuries
Broken Neck Bones: Epstein's hyoid bone (near the Adam's apple) and two parts of his thyroid cartilage were fractured. Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden—hired by Epstein’s brother—stated these three fractures are "extremely unusual" in suicidal hangings and more characteristic of homicidal strangulation.
Ligature Mark and Blood: Baden observed that the neck wound was in the center of the neck rather than higher up (as typical in hangings) and that the wound was thinner than the bedsheet used. He also noted blood on the neck that was absent from the ligature itself.
2. Surveillance Video Discrepancies
"Missing Minute" and Edits: A CBS News investigation found the surveillance footage released by the FBI was not "raw" as claimed, but a copy edited in Adobe Premiere. A one-minute gap (11:59 p.m. to 12:00 a.m.) was later attributed to a nightly system reset.
Unidentified Figures: Forensic analysis of the footage revealed an "orange flash" at 10:39 p.m. While the DOJ suggested it was a guard with linens, independent analysts believe the movement was more consistent with an inmate or someone in a prison uniform.
Camera Malfunctions: Two cameras outside Epstein's cell malfunctioned the night he died. Footage from an earlier July incident—where Epstein was found unconscious—was also reportedly erased due to technical errors.
3. Institutional Failures and Scene Management
Guard Conduct: The two guards assigned to Epstein's unit fell asleep and failed to perform required 30-minute checks for approximately three hours. They later falsified records to cover this up.
Housing Irregularities: Despite a psychologist's warning that Epstein must have a cellmate, he was left alone for a full day after his previous cellmate was transferred. He was also permitted to hoard extra linens.
Staged Scene Allegations: Forensic experts noted that items in the cell, including medications and the noose, appeared in different locations across photographs taken over a 90-minute period, suggesting the scene was moved or "staged" before full documentation.
Hi David. I always enjoy hearing your take on things. I do have to point out something about the Epstein death which you didn't mention. Lividity. Gravity makes blood in the body settle at the lowest point relative to the person's physical position at the time of death. A person lying face up on the floor, for example, will always show lividity on his back. What I read was that the lividity was wrong. It showed Epstein was in a different position when he died and had been moved into the position he was in when he was found. The later position would not have resulted in the lividity pattern which was on Epstein's body. I also heard his brother ask why he would have killed himself when he had a hearing coming up in a few days to discuss his being released from jail. He was not on a suicide watch, either as it didn't appear to the staff that he merited that treatment. The brother also said he hired his own forensic pathologist and said between this guy and the official pathologist, they could not rule out homicide. They settled on suicide due to a lack of proof that someone had access to Epstein's cell. I also have heard about the various people who "knew things" about the pedophile ring being found dead -- and where "suicide" was not always possible as a cause of death. I am not someone who is quick to rush to conspiracy theories. However, I have listened to various reports concerning suspicious deaths associated with Epstein, and I am not convinced. Personally, I think the fractures of the hyoid bone might be the weakest argument to surface. I'm also now thinking of a Sixty Minutes Australia interview with Virginia Guiffre where she mentions coming to consciousness on a bed, being in a lot of pain and in a pool of blood. She said she heard Ghislaine tell Jeffrey they had to take her to the hospital but never learned what the diagnosis was. Virginia wondered if it was a miscarriage. The interviewer asked, "Couldn't you just get the medical records?" Virginia looked at her and responded that the records might just report whatever Epstein wanted to have reported. This is a really dark group of people with lots of money and ability to blackmail people, and you can't judge events by standard means. Jean Luc Brunel's death also had a lot of questions surrounding it. Decades ago, I worked on child sexual abuse cases for Child Protective Services. There are things which are always present in these cases, such as emotional pressure from others not to tell the truth or to recant under these pressures and often that it would be responsible for the person not to tell the truth to protect others. Usually it's psychological pressure. Now add boatloads of money, possible loss of prestige and power and even imprisonment and imagine how those things could raise the stakes for a pedophile not wanting to be caught.
Let's see how the Former Prince holds up.
It’s circumstantial for sure, but that’s a lot of holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. If Epstein was a blackmailer and Trump wasn’t responding to him, I can totally see Trump calling for his arrest and murder to keep him quiet. Ivanna too. It’s totally in Trumps character. When he starts getting to the point where someone else has the advantage, he bites hard.
No one thing is enough. But all of these together should definitely prompt a non partisan investigation to get to the bottom of it all.
Thank you, David. Apparently there's now been some publicity about other things such as financial information indicating unlikely timing for a suicide, as well as reminders of Epstein's lenient situation allowing him quite a bit of freedom and the ability to continue doing business. It's always made sense to me that any number of people involved with Epstein had reason to fear disclosure of their own culpability.
My 2 cents...He was murdered but unfortunately any conclusive evidence has long been destroyed. I would say further investigation needs to be done, but only to promote doubt about the suicide. The problem with those two statements is with no conclusive evidence the investigation might look as if it were a confirmation of suicide, rather than casting doubt.
long story short, if you cannot conclusively prove murder, then don't use investigation to confirm suicide. Leaving vague doubt might be more beneficial politically than confirming suicide.
Check with Williams Barr and Donald Trump about Jeffrey Epstein
In the 60 Minutes interview of the forensic pathologist, the photos of the sharp cut marks on Epstein’s corpse’s neck are incompatible with strangulation by a bed sheet. They are more consistent with being strangled with a wire garrote.
In addition all of the violation of protocol after he was found dead in his cell suggests skullduggery.